Sorry didn't see your next post; all is well.

According to this NY Times article, Swedish doctors are paid less than half of US doctors, and the numbers are adjusted for purchasing power parity, so it represents relative standard of living:

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/15/how-much-do-doctors-in-other-countries-make/

Your example of the $1000 drug for $30 disgusts me, and I think gets at one of the root cause problems. When patients are "price insensitive" as you put it, consumption abnormally rises--a lot of people who don't really need the drug will get it anyway. The drug companies who are still getting the $1000 are making an abnormally large profit (because they are selling more than the drug would in a free market). Due to this abnormal market, they advertise their drugs on TV, trying to get people to try their drug, people are advised to "ask your doctor about it", leading to even more demand for these drugs, because after all, it costs "only" $30. If the market was left alone, that $1000 drug might never have been developed, because something that was actually needed or wanted more might have been developed instead--something people would actually pay for without the true cost being masked.

Meanwhile, when you say the government pays for it, what that really means is that you and I pay for it--the taxpayers. There is no mythical government with magical money trees--the taxes to pay for all this comes from us. So you and I are in effect paying the drug companies an extra $970 so that anybody who wants to can get the drug for $30. Why is someone else deciding that you and I should chip in for this, and create a country full of people on chronic prescriptions, from kids to senior citizens? Really, does this make sense to anyone?

But back to my original point, I still believe that if government continues to expand their control over the medical industry, it will become socialized, and it will kill medical innovation in this country. Many people who would have become great doctors or medical researchers will not, because they won't be able to find jobs, or won't be able to make enough of a living to pay off their student loans. Companies will scale back their investment in medical research, so that only the projects with the most obvious returns on investment will get greenlighted, and many projects that might have led to great innovation will be cancelled.

I stand by my example from the Czech Republic, because it is a real life true example. In the same table, the Czech Republic shows that their doctors are paid about half what Swedish doctors make--less than 1/4th of US doctors. So the situation is worse in the Czech Republic than in Sweden. It doesn't change the overall point, that socializing medicine makes being a doctor a much less attractive proposition, which will naturally lead to a talent drain, and a shortage of doctors.

Welcome to Obamacare, everyone!

One other point about the drugs, don't for a minute think that doctors will not prescribe the drugs just because their patients ask. My wife went to a new doctor, and after sharing her general complaints, walked out with samples and prescriptions for about 5 different drugs, almost all of which are meant to be taken chronically. That was *without* asking specifically for any of them. My wife is a pretty healthy woman. She runs marathons.

She hasn't filled any of them because she doesn't want to become dependent on any drugs, but how many people have gone to that same doctor and began a drug regimen for the rest of their lives? How many doctors are going to say no to their patients when they come in armed with the symptoms that the drug supposedly cures? Even if they said no, how many doctors would the patient need to go to before they found a prescription-happy one like the one my wife saw?

Note to self; repay debts to ugly with fake money.

@ProxyCheater,

That reminds me of a personal experience of mine. When I first started my business two years ago; I was sleeping like 4 hours or less a night. I was working my full time job during the day; and working on my business at night.

For the first time in my life I experienced an anxiety attack; which now I know is normal after stressing your body like I did and lack of sleep. Anyway; this freaked me out; because an anxiety attack has the same symptoms as more dangerous scenarios like a heart attack. So I ended up going to a doctor for a check up just to make sure. My check up went fine; and I had no issues; but once I mentioned I had an anxiety attack the doctor instantly asked me if I wanted him to prescribe Valium. I was like WTF?

I had heard of this concept of going to a doctor and asking for prescription drugs but I had never actually experienced how easy it is to do. I turned down the Valium because I'm very much concerned about dependency on such things.

Ugly that is fine; you are free to disagree with me. My intention when debating is to learn knew perspectives. I do this by challenging other peoples perspectives and having them challenge mine. If I find holes in an argument of mine I investigate further.

I'm very content with my understanding of the current system; and I challenge my understand each and every day by continuing to stay informed and engaging the opposition both in real life conversations and in online formats such as this.

However I do understand that it is impossible to change someones worldview via this argumentative approach. People make their own decisions and prefer to have their opinions changed by personal discovery as opposed to being told by someone else.

My motives for having these discussions are purely selfish. I hope to increase my awareness of difference opinions; because it is a more efficient way of finding the truth.

My experiences; most of which are impossible to reproduce on the forum have led me to the conclusions I have today. These conclusions have served me well and I continue to learn and modify them as new facts arise.

we should meet in person; i've never met a conservative IRL. i feel my universe would explode.

Well you will be disappointed because I'm not conservative. I'm libertarian.

But yeah sure; I have no issues with meeting IRL.

In fact; I would still be willing to commit to a discussion between BO and I on tinychat (to be recorded) to end all debates.

Let's just get it over with. But beyond that; Boogy we should definitely have a beer; (or whiskey which i like to drink; so please keep up).