Proxy Cheater, drug commercials are illegal in norway. to be able to get the drug you need your doctor to prescribe it to you.

the way it usually happens is that the patient will complain about something, if the doctor see fit, he will prescribe a drug. then if the patient is unhappy with the drug, the doctor will prescribe another drug. usually giving the patient the choise of what drug to use, while the doctor is the one saying yes/no


in europe we use in general less drugs than in the US, the determining factor if you use a drug in norway is wether the doctor recomends it or not, not the price. certain kinds of drugs you have to get an expert to prescribe to you.


there have actually been studies about the drug prices, and in norway it is about the same as in the US, except that in the US the insurrance companies have to pay for it, or the people get broke selling their houses to pay for the $1000 drug.



"and it will kill medical innovation in this country...."

that I have to disagree with. seeing as in the University of Oslo, about 1/3 of people taking a science education does medical research. Including me, my sister and many of my friends.

"..Many people who would have become great doctors or medical researchers will not, because they won't be able to find jobs, or won't be able to make enough of a living to pay off their student loans."

^^that is a problem with your educational system then. not the socialiced medicine.

but really, any socialiced medicine have to be price competative compared to student loans. if I remember correctly, a doctor in the US studies for about 11 years before they start to work. if you were to socialice medicine, then it would be natural that they would get alot of that education for free from the public hospitals. that is how it is i norway. in norway we don't have high student loans, I think on average we have about 30-40K in student debt after our education.


your Czech republic example was an example from abut 1990, when the Czech economy was collapsing, and the doctors was still paid according to communism. it has little to do with socialiced medicine. I expect that the doctors of Czech republic in 1990 would make maybe 1/20th of US. it is just not an example of the problems of socialiced medicine, but an example of a society and economy in collapse.

Proxy

"One other point about the drugs, don't for a minute think that doctors will not prescribe the drugs just because their patients ask"


there are actually guidelines on how the doctors can do it. and in general, the heavyest drugs can only be prescibed by the experts. or if you are to get the gov refund, you have to apply for it. if a norwegian doctor were to prescribe those 5 drugs, then the patient would probably have to pay the full price.

there have been studies showing that european doctors have been getting more effect with less drugs, because of these guidelines.

I think the problem with this discussion is that you do not know how it actually works. I feel I am just using my time posting facts about the system. I don't even make arguments.

Mrk; I don't get how having an expert be the gate keeper helps the problem at all. I mean the US has the same system. An expert is required to prescribe drugs as well. The issue isn't that the expert isn't involved in the process; the issue is that there is a financial incentive to prescribe drugs. This incentive is a result of government subsidies on drugs that is the essence of socialized medicine. If you want to argue about tiny details that's fine; but at least respond to the premise of the argument; which is that socialized medicine subsidizes drugs at the expense of the taxpayer. This inevitably leads to in increase in the usage of these drugs. This is just economics 101; and there is nothing; and I do mean nothing; that can be done to avoid that outcome.

Just like all the laws in the world can't stop the demand for recreational drugs. All the laws in the world cannot change the outcome of increased usage of goods that are subsidized. It is an economic law that is no different then gravity. And just like gravity; you can't legislate it away (as much as you'd like to think so).

clean 100th

"the issue is that there is a financial incentive to prescribe drugs"

I am not sure there is an incentive to prescribe drugs in the norwegian system. the doctors are trained in ethics, and they actually follow the ethics guideline of not prescribing drugs before it is neccesary. they could lose their license if they did.


"which is that socialized medicine subsidizes drugs at the expense of the taxpayer. This inevitably leads to in increase in the usage of these drugs."

how do you explain that european patients in general have more access (in price), while less consumption? I think the guidelines and oversight is the reason. I think there is fiercer competition between doctors in the US, which leads to them being more willing to prescribe drugs, in fear of losing patients.

Where are you finding these studies? All the studies I have found say exactly the opposite.

A study done by the Norwegian Institute of Public Health in 2007 said the following:

"Each year, 75% of all women and 61% of men in Norway receive at least one drug on prescription. In the 0-17 year age group, 45% or more received prescription drugs in 2007. About 30% of girls and 38% of boys were prescribed a drug before they were a year old."

http://www.fhi.no/eway/default.aspx?pid=238&trg=MainLeft_5895&MainArea_5811=5895:0:15,4671:1:0:0:::0:0&MainLeft_5895=5825:71035::1:5858:11:::0:0

Also this more recent study shows that ADHD prescriptions are through the roof; just like in the USA.

http://www.fhi.no/eway/default.aspx?pid=238&trg=MainLeft_5895&MainArea_5811=5895:0:15,4671:1:0:0:::0:0&MainLeft_5895=5825:71035::1:5858:11:::0:0

So in response to your claims about low usage of prescription drugs in Norway; I would state that you are simply wrong. 75% of all Norwegians were on prescription drugs in 2007. That is absolutely jaw dropping.

Almost 75% of all... *

wait code are you suggesting that people in countries with universal health care overuse prescription drugs because they can get them for free?
im pretty sure people use/abuse prescription medication much more in the US than any other country....

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/19/health/research/19stats.html

I'm not making any comparisons to the USA.

What I'm saying is that subsidizing prescription drugs as is done in the USA and in all socialized medicine; is the cause of the massive increase in consumption of pharmaceuticals.