you have every right to disagree with jurgs policy on progression of punishment, and that is a good conversation to have.

sorry if i am overreacting, its just that maybe i am reading a bit too much slander into what youre saying about a good mod.

I'm not attacking Jurgen at all; unless you think openly disagreeing with him as an attack.

Maybe this is a good time to re-read the post. Surely everything I have done in this thread has been aimed at the banning of this openly racist member of the community and not directly at Jurgen himself. Jurgen is just the active mod on duty for these types of things (correct me if I'm wrong).

i never got a "warning" on my wall i was just banned. and rightfully so. if people are gonna use racial slurs, they should be banned. simply put if you ban someone once for using racial slurs, they likely won't do it again. having said that, it seems as though dc may have a personal issue with the aforementioned because he didn't even spell anything correctly so it could be argued he didn't use any racial slurs but rather spelled out an onomatopoeia

Surely; posts like these are more provocative and thought inspiring then the normal list threads. I enjoy a good argument/discussion; but by no means am I slandering (or intend to slander Jurgen). He seems like a good guy; I have no reason to believe otherwise. And he is very timely when replying to these threads; which means he is a good mod; in my eyes.

But I definitely disagree with this policy.
I know its been a while since you played Monte (no offense; I'm assuming a bunch here; so correct me if I'm wrong); but the reality is that some members are openly racist and bold about it. I sense that the boldness comes from the fact that they have done it many times before with no consequences.

I've seen probably hundreds of racist remarks since arriving here in 2007. This is the first time I've reported someone.

If these odds hold true for most people; then there is probably very little that happens in consequence to these types of remarks.

I do find it a little discerning that openly admitted racists are given a warning; and PGA/Friendly play is treated like a scourge that must be eradicated at any cost.

Are priorities not being allocated properly? Surely openly racist members do more to destroy the credibility of this game and it's mods then a few friends playing together at the higher level tables.

Maybe I'm stretching but don't you agree that racism is more despicable then PGA. Surely we can find a way to discourage racism at least as firmly as we do PGA.

if you want racists ban immediately, perhaps take your claim to skrum? i want to say that he is more instaban-triggerhappy on racist remarks. but i forget.

i can understand your point of view. i would have to hear jurgs reasoning for not instabanning a first offense if its obvious hate language, which in this case it is. perhaps the defense is that people lose control after they get dicked or superunlucky, and have the immediate reaction of getting ugly for one or two lines, then sobering up. and he doesnt want to ban instant rage language as much as ban true racists. i dunno.

i can see how you could argue it either way.

but i disagree that banning blatant pga is more important on this site than banning blatant racism. both should be banned, ofc, but the blatant pgaing was killing the site for awhile. most people on the internet have seen blatant racism so often they become numb to it. which sucks, but i dont think the scattered hate language ever threatened the site.

btw i read slander into your jurgen musings based on:

I've seen you hand out numerous bans in the last few weeks for racist comments when reported by your friends.

and

I will not fund a site that is selectively enforcing it's terms of service.


i read that as you attacking jurgen for punishing first offenders based on who brings the evidence. and it wasnt like you were saying he only listens to people he trusts, you were saying he only listens to people who are his friends.

sorry again if i read too much into that.

I see what you are saying. My first couple of posts were probably not the most tactful. My apologies.

Perhaps there is a community based solution to this problem. I'm thinking of creating a greasemonkey script that allows players to flag people as (stabbers/PGA/Racists) etc. The key being that friends can quickly see the what other friends have said about someone just by viewing an icon next to their avatar at the table.

I think the flaw with the current review section; is that you cannot filter out the reviews from people you don't know and see the reviews from your friends/trusted etc.

Therefore I can avenge a friends stabber in another game without my friend even telling me; and vice versa.

This is definitely a cool idea. Btw; I have the server to host the database and services if anyone wants to create the greasemonkey script.

Otherwise I'm going to work on it in my free time.

thanks Monte for saving my much needed "almost Kdice-free Saturday".

I checked this thread 2 or 3 times today and only barely could stop myself from responding, only because you respond almost exactly what I could say in my own defense. So thanks a lot for that (My wife says she owes you). It's not at all that I don't care about this case but I could devote 3 hours a day easily to listening to argumentation's about Kdice cases and I still wouldn't be able to satisfy everybody.

I mean come on, I try to do judgements on what is barely acceptable and what is barely unacceptable on a day by day basis. It's not always easy to draw the line for ban or no ban so I try to look back on how I acted in a similar case before.

Whenever I get online, people come consult me or ask me to ban people. I try to do this to the best of my abilities and I try to be consistent as much as I can. I know it's not perfect (I probably already made plenty of too light and too long bans) but it's the best you'll get around her in the current state of the KDice website. Let me remind you that I have no tools to check chatlogs to see if this guy already used racist insults before.

If I don't ban upon someone request, that person starts criticizing me. If I ban someone, most of those banned people start explaining why this was so unjust because it happened to be the first time they did this and miraculously got caught (I must be pretty good at catching them then) or why others do the same thing all the time and get punished so much less.

Bottom line: being a mod is a lose lose situation. After a month of being a mod, I already understood why so many great mods cut back on their mod time or simply retired. It's not that we want constant thank you's for our work but you can almost never do right for the entire community.

So I am in the process of trying to defend my actions less in all these complaints while trying to do the most I can in the limited time I can devote to KDice. I already gave up a lot of my own KDice playtime just so I could actively mod enough, also on the lower tables. You can't ask more from me. If you want more mods, no problem, ask Ryan. If you don't agree with my call, you can always try and convince me with good arguments or you can complain to Ryan. If he overrules me, I will never have a problem with that, I already told him I think.


And to end this response, it's a bit sad to see that you address your report directly to me, knowing I am probably the mod that is most likely to be willing to spend some time on your case. Why not just report your complaint to all mods? It's not that I mind that direct call upon me but if you are trying to demotivate me, good job. I sort of gave my promise to look into all cases posted in the forum and I will do that unless another mods acts first or I have real life priorities and stuff. But you also have to accept my rulings or at least try to convince me in a more positive way than this. If you want this guy banned so badly, do some v-mod work and follow him and get me 2 or 3 more screencaps.

you are asking me to ban someone on nggr and brown moslum. I don't like that tone AT ALL but if you read my advisor blog, I need multiple offenses to have a clear case to actually ban. If there would have been some references to racist talk in this guys reviews, I would have done the ban just like I did a few days ago in a similar case.

People use nigger,slut,gay on KDice all the time. That's sad to see but that's impossible to ban in every single case. You would need a swear filter or something to control every table. The aim is to ban the people who use these insults in an excessive way. If you want to play in an environment without swearing or racism, I am sure you can find some church playgroups or something in your area.


good night and have fun playing KDice

sigh, more to read it seems while i was typing, that will be for tomorrow :P

jurgs, well-written response. tell your wife that for payment, she can give your face a boob sandwich. i know how much i like it when my wife allows that (damn breastfeeding, now her chest is too sensitive for boob sandwiches).

dead, i would LOVE that code to exist. we need to convince Ryan to allow *trustworthy* people to add code to his site, which would improve it. he is too untrusting now though (who can blame him after how hes been burned in the past?)

greasemonkey that shit together. ive always wanted to see an ebay-style ratings system, where you can give people +1 or -1 for friendliness or trustworthiness or goodchat.