speaking from a personal level: I wish I could believe the political narrative. The notion that laws like this and shit like the iraq war are in fact necessary. I wish I could believe that the justifications for these betrayals were so great and that the threats entailed had such potential for disaster that it necessitated our leaders to lie. I wish I could believe that if indeed our leaders told us the truth society would collapse or descend into chaos. But I cannot. The reality is our politicians have time and time again proven their greatest priority is returning favors and making money. I wish I could believe the narrative but it doesn't take long to figure out most of these guys are in it for themselves.

I don't have as much a problem with individual politicians as much as I have a problem with the collective. Certainly there's plenty of politicians that deserve my scorn, but I realize there's a few that deserve my praise too. Ultimately the aggregate is what matters, ultimately it's their collective interests that transpire and not the people's - and that's what I have a problem with.

for once, i totally agree with BO. i couldve typed that whole post myself, except not as eloquently, and mine wouldve stretched for thousands of more characters.

Very well said BO. I totally agree with that sentiment. Although I'm not sure how you reconcile it with your support of democrats over republicans. Shouldn't you despise both?

I'm a progressive dead so I value progressive values. Democrats share more of those values than say Republicans most of the time (some exceptions being Ron Paul and Rand Paul). My allegiance to either party or an individual politician stops where they no longer share my values.

Here is what wikipedia defines as modern progressivism:

"Modern issues for progressives can include[citation needed]: electoral reform (including instant runoff voting, proportional representation and fusion candidates), environmental conservation, pollution control and environmentalism, same-sex marriage, reproductive rights, universal health care, abolition of the death penalty, affordable housing, a viable Social Security System, renewable energy, smart growth urban development, a living wage and pro-union policies, among many others."

So I can get a better understanding; do you agree with all of the above values?

pretty much

by the way when I mentioned the alternative vote that's what an instant run off election is. It'd by and large empower citizens to vote on issues rather than along party lines

by in large*

one thing I really dislikes about the patriot act (and guantanamo) is the following reasoning that is possible to find;

1. its not bad because it is not used against american citizens

2. they are the ones that are planning to attack us, we are just stopping them by taking them as prisoners of war.

3. we shuold not give them access to the american legal system, it is too good for them.


all of these statements means implicitly that USA reserves the right to do stuff to people that their own government are not alowed to do, and that american politicians would make a case for attacking if they did.

think about it, there are people that have been in guantanamo bay for almost 10 years, with no trail. the reason we have a trails is so that we cannot keep people in prison that we cannot prove guilty.

I would caracterize guantanamo bay as a crime against humanity, this is not something I come by lightly, but keeping people in jail for 10 years, and now it seems possibly 10-20 years more, is, and should be illegal under international law. I am almost thinking that it would be better if cuba conducted a raid against the prison, to free all of the prisoners, they would probably be morally justified to do that.

guantanamo bay and the patriot act is important reasons that many think of USA as an evil empire (I do not feel this way, but it is not a good thing), and in many parts of the world people concider USA as the main threat to their own well being.

btw, dead, I really liked the ron paul speach you linked, especially the part about people trusting themselves with the power they promised to remove.

as they say

power corrupt