im not trying to call out anyone...
I just want the old to respect the new. ELO died a long time ago. Kdice has changed so much, and almost every month it seems like it's a new game. But kdice is not rocket science and im sure there are players who can sit in 0,100,500 tables and become at least good players and remain unknown. Do anyone one of us know all 4000-6000 players. No. So unknown greatness may be out there. I just hope ppl stop being so closed minded. It's not me trying to disrespect you all.

My other pt was, I think it's overly inflated and retarded to take credit for starting pga. Who knows who started it. I mean it doesnt take a genius to be nice to someone you just played a game with.

Lastly,
PGA is a part of this game.( a form of Pga to me = not taking a roll that you would normally take bc it's someone you've seen before). No I don't have a group that I will sit with and we feed each other pts or find new ways to cheat. Never done this, and I don't plan to. But being nice is a form of pga and cheating...and I am guilty of it. I think we all are. If you say you're not, then my friend, I am not the delusional one.

Nothing pisses me off more than people who refuse to play properly.

If you can't sit at a table and win by yourself than you don't belong on the leaderboard.

PGA ruins the game.

The old school people talk about how the old times were better because back then in the "treehouse" everyone know everyone else better. There were actual conversations that held academic appeal, or in-depth conversations about politics. Now the chat box and the forum is usually filled with mindless dribble.

The new people in this game grew into with the mindset that you need a PGA to place well. They can't play the game 1v1v1v1v1v1v1, but x vs. 1v1...v1. They've grown too dependent, and that's why people say old schoolers are better.

well said, xc. (and i hardly ever agree with that egotistical maniac.)

i didnt post to this thread for the longest time because i was convinced that johnson was trolling, due to the complete lack of logic in any of his ramblings.

old school: even at worst, i would estimate the frequency of pga at 15%. individually all the members had perfected basic kdice strategy. and, yes, a 15% pga rate is still blatant cheating. im not glorifying this fact, nor is anyone. the only time you see people bragging about manipulating the system by cheating was when xluckx et al thought it would be fun to boost integral from 9th to 1st last june. and, damn-it-all, that shit was hilarious, even if it meant i got a bronze instead of a silver.

anyways, xc is correct, somewhere along the way, all lower players got into the (completely wrong) mindset that in order to succeed on the top players, you either have to become an asshole like the rest of them, or form a pga squad to beat the assholes at their own game. the problem with this is that as soon as the system went to a monthly gpokr style, the top tier players couldnt pga effectively any more.

see, the beauty of the elo system (and this has been stated several times before) was that you could play a tiny number of games (i.e. <100), and easily get a top 25 medal. so, lets take it as a given that i play 300 games a month back then, cus i love the game. i can form a group of 12 cheating asshole pgaers, and we can rotate 25-game streaks. each of us can have top elo for ~15 games, and at the end of the month, the 12 of us obliterate the competition. its easy manipulation. this is what the noob population believed was done in the elo era: mass cheating by a structured dozen or so cheaters. this is false.

there was still cheating, no doubt. but (at least in my experience), the cabal wasnt so fanatic about disciplined cheating. we all loved the game, played a ton of games, respected each other, etc.... and at worst we pgad 15% of the games, in my opinion. but im not glorifying this cheating in any way.

yes there were pgas before the cabal, i.e. the fazer clan or whatever. but no group of cheaters was ever so 'successful' (in a hacking sense of the word) as the cabal in the elo days. this is because back in the elo days, the system was way easier to manipulate. gold pngs for <100 games. it hadnt yet occurred to Ryan that he could alter the outcome of a month. etc, etc.

since then, the measures that Ryan has taken have really cleaned up the loopholes that used to be available to organized crime. now, a gold png costs at least 400 or 500 games each month, which means the cost/benefit of time being a bitch to help your pga partner isnt worthwhile any more. a 12-man pga crew would be lucky to get all 12 in the top 100, let alone the top 12.

anyways, ive been rambling.

major points of interest:
1) cheating by pgaing is damn hard to successfully pull off now, and that is a good thing.
2) newer players have no comprehension of how easy it was to manipulate the system back in the day.
3) newer players are easily as good as older players as far as basic strategy goes (kdice really is a simple game, doesnt take much to master it).
4) being pissed cus newer players dont get respect from older players because they dont cheat as much or as well... thats the dumbest most obvious troll ive ever seen.

so 1 of 2 options:
1) johnson is a douche for glorifying cheating
2) johnson has a small penis and is tired of all the big penises hogging all the pussy.

First @ rifty learn to read my complete post, ELO was the past and me and what is left off the cabal play very differently then we did in ELO in regards to playing together, which I said.

Jr. no really you are not as cool or prophetic as you think, you say the same things that have been said before. The fact that you think PGA is part of the game and play accordingly is why I don't think very highly of your playing style and why I don't give many of the new players respect.

What XC just posted is one of the biggest problems of the game. The need to PGA to get a good score died with ELO Jr. You can do very well without playing that bastardized version of a circle jerk that most people do now.

Seriously, you are just like everyone else. You want the newer players to be respected by the older players? I ask you why? Most of the older players are gone and the ones that are left have made just as many friends with new players as they did with old players.

There is no right way to play kdice, but as far as the vision of the creator of the game, I am pretty sure the wrong way is to rely on past relationships and outside tools to win. Hey maybe there can be a valid debate on that, but I doubt it.

People play your own game and worry only about the game at hand, cause who really fucking cares if someone on a online game likes you for not rolling an obvious cut. If you really derive satisfaction out of being nice to people in a online random dice game, you really need to seriously take a look at your life and reevaluate your direction.

"If you really derive satisfaction out of being nice to people in a online random dice game, you really need to seriously take a look at your life and reevaluate your direction."

I do, I've taken a look at my life and I like the direction it goes.

Cheers,

nuf

Talk talk talk. None of you have answered the fundamental question Johnson initially posed:

"Are we cheating by breathing the air that's available to us?"

yes 0
no 1
uh? 0
stfu johnson 0

Alright I've got a few things to say about this considering my name has come up a few times, and I have to defend my honor. Although I have retired from playing the game, I'll be damned if I'll have my name and thoughts dragged through the mud.

Johnson, Jr., just because you say (im paraphrasing) "with all due respect ....." doesn't mean you can say whatever the fuck you want after that, and it will be okay to anyone you just shit on. Alternate accounts are retarded. That's the point I was trying to make about them. No baggage? This game is social, if you don't play under your main, you may as well play dice wars, because that games doesn't care if you call yourself "the fairy princess of North Carolina."

I'll back up why I think that players of ELO days will always be named in the top10 players of all times, based on peers and survey's, or however you might pole an online internet video game community. It's kinda like baseball, in the sense that you can't go around saying that players like Babe Ruth, Joe Dimaggio, Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, Bob Gibson, Roberto Clemente, etc etc. couldn't compete in today's competition and should therefore be eliminated based on the changes of the game from when they played. These players, would still play baseball with the best of them REGARDLESS of changes in the game. How do you think players like myself, montecarlo, dasfury, MadHat_Sam, bcmatteagles, Vermont, Vohaul, jpc4p etc were able to make the transition from ELO to a points based system so effortlessly and successfully? It's because we're damn good at this game. We didn't need PGA's in a post cabal world, we didn't need teams of new players PGEing people without their knowing, we didn't need people to hold our hands. I have literally played 99.1% of all my games on my main account, and I have dealt with every bag that came with it. You don't think I knew what I was getting in to when I would sit down with Yellowfin or Longhair? (Two of my favorite and respected adversaries).

I don't impress my beliefs on kdice, I think that I hold a pretty fair, and just view on a game that I have been playing for a very long time. We did change with the game, that's why several players from the ELO days continue to dominate this game, and with the increased statistics columns, you can see WE STILL DO WELL.

The game didn't evolve in to a PGA arena. The new players felt that it was the only way to survive. Rather than take some time to develop strategies or game styles that allowed for success they banded together in to small cliques to fight the big fish. Even though PGA's were 99% done by the time points came around, they still seem to rear their ugly heads every once in a while. This was basically my point in explaining, in what I thought were concise and accurate words of players getting that gold.png by being 'voted' in. PGA votes if you will. It usually started about 15 days from the end of the month when 3 players began to emerge, and become forerunners to the gold.png players began to treat them differently. Social dynamics of this game HELP this. People often BEGGED to be given a spot in individual games, so it wouldn't crush their chances of that golden die.

No, I never said PGA started with the cabal, but it did a helluva good job shaping the rest of the way players view the game now. There were only a few months, which I thought I made clear that this happened, but apparently that got out of hand. I was trying to reminisce not insult or belittle.

So no, I will take offense to your topic, by which you try to drag my thoughts and concerns about the game through the mud.

Respectfully, sir, and with all due respect, go fuck yourself. No offense?

(forgive me if i insult anyone by not including their names in those players who continue to do well, you know who you are, and often don't need mentioning in a weak forum to know so.)

Before I revive my stalwart response to any thread on PGAing, I will concede a few things I haven't admitted to myself:


Going into any game with a unannounced previous agreement between two powers, whether it be strategy, action, even physical games like baseball or football,is unfair and even in the realm of cheating because of the mystery surrounding it.

There's no two ways about it: if it's not cheating, then why must you hide it? My personal definition of cheating is something that either blatantly defies rules to accomplish objectives or using techniques that aren't common knowledge to all players.


Given that, you'd think that the knowledge of PGA would be written off of the "cheating" list as far as that definition goes. Well, not really. You're still using an unapproved method to achieve the objective of the game. So by the most practical and logical method, we know PGA is still cheating and those involved with such will try to object and explain their reasons, argue with one another over who says what about the cabal. I'll get back to you though...



So, my classic riddle for the PGA argument:


I ave a brother who used to play kdice about a year ago. He quit because he was frustrated with the points system and the players, and I don't blame him. I still play since it's hard for me to put kdice down. Anyways, I live on the east coast of the U.S. and eh lives in California, so we used it as a medium to "get together" and have fun and communicate since he''s 3,000+ miles away.


So, the inevitable came up: I would never attack him. While you may say "Oh, come on, he's your bro, like some crappy internet game will get between you two"... You're right for thinking that, but consider the game we're talking about. This is kdice, almost based entirely on factors that you can't control (or have relative difficulty dealing with)

Even with our comraderie, it was too much for my brother, who knows how to play strategy games. He quit it because the scoring was (and still sorta is) ridiculously graded against those who get a bad break, which happens too often. So, *what was so wrong with our harmless alliance that had no great effect on each other scores and was only in good fun?


Should we base this all on intent and context or is it a blanket violation if one PGA's, even out of friendship and with no long term intent to win?

JDizzle, let us assume for a moment (and I don't necessarily agree with this) that robbing a bank is wrong.

Then, is it still wrong if you robbed the bank with your brother? What if you don't intend to actually use the money for anything? What if you robbed it on a Friday after they had closed?