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The JeremyS Manifesto - For Ryan and Others Who Care - The state of the new Kdice.
JeremyS wrote
at 6:52 AM, Sunday January 6, 2008 EST
Let me first start that I've enjoyed playing kdice, and I'm not bitter and angry towards anyone, espcially Ryan... I hope that what I have to say will be taken in the spirit of me offering advice as a gamesman rather than an angry "I quit" rant, because, quite frankly, I'm not angry with anyone, and I'm not sure I'm quitting. I am going to take a long and detailed look here at what I perceive to be serious flaws in the new system, but only because I want to see the game continue to improve.

Let me next say that I enjoyed playing this game, especially the game I experienced in December, when I broke into the "1k table" experience and got to meet and compete against the currently active elite players.

And, to be honest, I play games to experience them at the elite level. I hope that doesn't come off as arrogant... what I mean is that I don't judge a game so much by its first blush experience, or the game experience you get hanging out with newbies and bad players, but rather the continuing value it offers to long term players who are proficient.

As such, I spent awhile looking at the top end game of kdice last month, both getting to know the regular players in order to get a feel for how the community was balanced, and looking at what it took to finish at the top.

It was apparent to me fairly quickly that all the complaints about PGA at the 1k tables are whiny nonsesnse. As I was new to the game at the top level and had no allies to speak of, I was in a good position to judge what the truth of these rumours are. The truth is, if you play a fair and balanced game, act friendly, and explain your actions in a reasonably articulate fashion, you will be welcomed by the top tier. Maybe in the days before I started playing, this wasn't true, and there was lots of PGA and cheating, and the top tables got a well deserved bad reputation, but it wasn't true last month.

I also noticed that there was a pretty good balance in terms of rewarding skilled players.

However, under the new system, the balance appears to be gone, and that creates a few distinct problem that leads me to believe I am abandoning the game.

One quick definition: When I say old system, I'm talking about the system as it existed from October to December. I never played in the ELO days and they are irrelevant to this discussion.

There are two big problems under the current system, and believe it or not, I don't think the flagging system is one of them (although it has its quirks as well).

The first problem is that games are no longer a zero sum equation.

I'm not sure if they were precisely zero sum under the old system or not, I didn't look extremely closely at the formulas, but I believe they were close. Basically, the only thing that kept players points across the entire system from adding up to zero total was the fact that players couldn't get negative points. All the points that players had were created at the 0 tables, and gradually trickled up the ladder as players trying to play at new levels donated points to more experienced ones.

Under the new system, each game, at every level, generates more than zero points. In fact, I tracked the points at a 1k table, writing down exactly what everyone got, and it turns out that in each game, the sum total of points earned was EXACTLY 576 points each game, which averages out to just over +82 per player. At the 250 tables, it is exactly 1/4th the score, or 142 points per game added to the pool.

What difference does this make? It means that you can play BELOW AVERAGE at the 1k tables and actually still come out ahead.

Let's consider a player who isn't that great. Maybe at the 250 tables, he does exactly average, or about +20 points a game. Now, at the 1k tables, he does below average, and gets only half of what the total player average is per game. He still gains 40 points per game. So basically, this theoretical mediocre guy gains twice the points per game by doing poorly at 1k than he does by playing averagely at 250!

Before, sitting down at the 1k tables was a scary proposition. You stood to gain a lot, but you also stood to lose a lot. Now, because you're gaining points per game for mediocre play, it actually makes sense to sit at the highest possible table because even if you do somewhat below average, you're going to gain points faster than you would doing somewhat above average at a 200 table.

Our same theroetical average joe under the old system wouldn't have ever made it to the 1k tables in the first place, because by doing exactly average at the 200 tables, his score would remain approximately 200. If he did get to the 1k tables (because scores DO fluctuate), he would have gotten crushed quickly and sent back down to the 200 tables where one would presume he would stay at approximately the same score for the rest of the month.

This is not a problem with points inflation. If scores were simply 5x higher, then the 5k tables would be the new 1k tables, and 1k would be the new 200, and life would continue as it had been. However, the reality now is that the high points tables will not be filled by a small group of quality players, but rather a larger quantity of players who are merely dedicated/addicted. The elite experience of kdice is just going to simply vanish, and mediocrity will spread far and wide.

That's not to say that the best players won't be well represented in the top 25, and playing at the highest tables. I'm sure they will be, because they do far better than average AND play a good bit. But the days when the 1k tables were filled with a small cadre of great players, where there was close to a guarantee that you were playing against the best players in at least 5-6 of the spots on the table, are simply gone. With the pool of players available and willing to play at 1k (remember, our average joe is BETTER REWARDED for playing at 1k than 250), the talent level at the tables is simply diluted.

It gets worse as time goes on. Because average play gains points, that means that the average player will be at 1k fairly quickly, and the talent level at the 1k table will get lower and lower, which means that the average player will start to succeed more, accelerating the problem. I wouldn't be surprised to discover that there will be more 1k games being played than 250 games by the end of the month, and it's entirely possible that the 5k tables will be flooded!

Consider this, we are only four days into the month and already the entire leaderboard is over 5k. Last month, there were only a few 5k games and they were super high-stakes. By the middle of the month, the people at the bottom of the leaderboard will be somewhere in the range of 20k points, and a 5k loss won't even be a big deal.

This last part of my first point may come off sounding arrogant, and I apologize if it does, but it's not intended in that fashion. One of the biggest reasons that I enjoyed playing with the best players at the 1k table last month was because the amount of irrational stuff that happens with those players goes way down. At the 200 tables you constantly saw players do weird stuff, or get vindictive and screw someone even though it cost them any chance of winning as well. At the 1k tables, that element was missing, but not this month. I had someone earlier today with no chance of connecting and with his base on the other side of the board just randomly split me from an island and then restack huge in my middle... he apologized after it happened, but it ruined both of our games. I checked his profile and he is a career sub-1k player before this month (he has 2600 points right now). While in the long term bad play rewards other players, I'd prefer not to even play with people who make those decisions.

The second problem has to do with the new dominance system and the number of starting dice. I think the idea behind the new system - eliminate farming - is great. However, in practice it has created a big problem:

Basically, in the old system, dominance didn't start calculating until after your third move, and people almost always started with a five stack.

That meant that throwing your dice all over the board on turn one was a really bad idea, and people basically called it suiciding. Suiciding across the board usually meant that a couple of players would each take one or two territories from you in establishing their bases cautiously, and you were going to be in terrible shape.

Under the new system, the equation is completely different. First, because five stacks are far less frequent, someone who suicides and has an even-ish build (mostly 2s and 3s) may well wind up holding a large number of the territories he jumped on, because the other players simply can't punish him as effectively.

In addition, the risk/reward balance is totally different.

First, because dominance starts calculating immediately, someone who gets a lot of territories fast and then gets wiped out fast can actually wind up not losing all that much - I saw a 7th place turn 2 finish where the 7th place player wound up with POSITIVE points.

Second, because it's far more likely to actually hold a significant amount of the territory, the player who can suicide best on turn 1 wins an awful lot. I have seen quite a few games essentially decided on turn one, or come down to 2-3 players after turn 1.

Third, because there is no longer a zero sum equation on the board, even if you don't win, you're penalized a lot less for losing.

Last month, when you saw someone going 2v2 or 3v3 on turn one, it was the bold move of a person deseperate to get a consolidated position or a connect. Now, it happens constantly on the first turn simply because the risk of losing dice on turn one is laregly ameliorated by the fact that players are unlikely to be able to punish you for having few dice and the reward increased dominance brings.

What does it add up to? People have become super aggressive on turn one, and instead of games coming down to who can consolidate a well defended position early and then expand and negotiate, the games seem to come down to luck on the first turn rolls, and even the unlucky aren't too bad off thanks to every board being a huge bonus to points.

So, that's why thoughts about the new system. It's probably going to drive me into retirement, because the game has basically gotten a lot less fun... there's no longer any sense of stepping above the pack and playing with the big boys, because the big boys are playing at the same tables as everyone else now. I hope everyone takes my thoughts into consideration for the long term improvement of the game. I don't want people to think that I can't hack it with the new system (I was on the leaderboard the first few days but haven't played as much the past couple), and I don't want to people to think that I reject these changes just because they are changes... I am fine with change as long as it's for the better, I just don't think that that is the case here.

I am also not advocating returning to the December system. I think, however, that a "new-new system" that seeks to end farming but addresses the concerns I've raised here will go a long way towards making kdice a balanced and fun game for everyone.

Thank you for your time.

« First ‹ Previous Replies 11 - 20 of 40 Next › Last »
JeremyS wrote
at 12:16 PM, Sunday January 6, 2008 EST
Gotcha, that makes sense because right now there are not extra dice.
petomni wrote
at 12:31 PM, Sunday January 6, 2008 EST
I'm not really a fan of the new scoring, agree with many of Jeremy's points.

I just played a game where 7th wouldnt flag, and got -645 at a 1k table, and I got 6th and had -21.

Also, everyone in top 25 is over 5k and there are no 5k tables.
Improv42 wrote
at 12:35 PM, Sunday January 6, 2008 EST
Excellent OP.

Flagging is more confusing, and I think not having a grey-out-immediately option limits some strategy, but overall, Jeremy's hit it on the head.
Ryan wrote
at 1:08 PM, Sunday January 6, 2008 EST
Here are some changes I've mentioned with the next update:

-Tables will be 0,100,500,2500,10000
-Additional points per game taken down one notch
-Plus 1 dice per player at the start
-Fix for the really bad first place finish

Thanks for the post Jeremy!

The only thing I think I disagree with is this:

"But the days when the 1k tables were filled with a small cadre of great players, where there was close to a guarantee that you were playing against the best players in at least 5-6 of the spots on the table, are simply gone"

The problem with this scenario is the top players become close friends and its not just skill that keeps other players out. Getting into this level is less about skill and more about making friends and makes people question their greatness. To restore something like this I would open to having a second 10k table thats only open to the top 250 career players. This way top players could still play at regular 10k.


JeremyS wrote
at 1:16 PM, Sunday January 6, 2008 EST
Hey Ryan -

I appreciate the prompt response. Here are a couple thoughts...

What about diminishing returns on the points per table at the higher levels?

So, right now it's 57.6% overall return. I'll ignore specific points values like 250,500,1k etc. and just call them A,B,C

So what if we had something like:

A: 60%
B: 40%
C: 20%
D: Zero Sum or a low percentage


Also, I don't know that I'm in favor of limiting the top tier tables to career high players... under that scenario, I wouldn't have been able to play at the top tables last month even though I demonstrated the ability to play there.

What if there was some sort of calculation for a player against the average PPG in order to gain access to that section? So, you basically have to do above average at the lesser tables to gain access to the higher tables.
sunvic wrote
at 1:22 PM, Sunday January 6, 2008 EST
An insanely decent post. Great reading from start to finish. I was thinking everything here. I tried quite hard in the December round and thought i'd picked up my act a little bit to hit a top 50 finish and i would to be able to do that again.

The update sounds good and that additional feature sounds amazing though i am not top 250 career it would be cool to watch.

Just an appraisal on the thoughts for now.
7destroy wrote
at 1:42 PM, Sunday January 6, 2008 EST
I must admit that I also do not like the fact that there is not zero sum anymore but what concerns me more is the low amount of dice you start with and that you can't punish suiciders, because you just don't have the power to. The position you can reach is pretty much determined by your turn and if you have a 5 stack, sometimes you do not have even a 4 stack and you cannot do anything about suiciders.

But one thing I don't understand, maybe it does not belong here, but I've seen several games, where only 3 people are left and 2 of them flagged for 2nd and they do not have the same amount of territories but the game kept going for some turns...
2Blue wrote
at 1:46 PM, Sunday January 6, 2008 EST
thanks ryan.

"The problem with this scenario is the top players become close friends and its not just skill that keeps other players out."

exactly right. this scenario amounts to a PGA and eliminates all the fun out of the game.
nuflis wrote
at 2:44 PM, Sunday January 6, 2008 EST
I was missing a PGA reference in this thread. Btw, great post Jeremy.
LionGazoz wrote
at 5:18 PM, Sunday January 6, 2008 EST
jeremy seems to be a smart man but i was wondering about the words he used,

when i was reading his posts i was wondering whe he wrote about "elite players"..."elite level"..."proficient players"..."skilled players"...."best players"..."small group of quality players"..."elite experience"..."small cadre of great players"...

pfffffrt...

jeremy do u seriously think, that this games has so much depth, that players in top ranks deserves such superlatives like "elite, best, proficient, great"...???

i don´t think that a top scored player need much skill, u can learn this game quick and u can play better than some dummies but all in all this game is a luck game, u dont need much talent, experience or a high IQ

i am not much expert about the programming of this game and i had only a couple of games before the new system was installed but i think, this game is less about strategy but more about luck

and this is the reason, why i wouldn´t use skill descriptions like "elite, best" etc. for players with highscores

maybe they are smarter than noobs...but calling them "elite" ????

lol

first of all, if u are familiar to strategy games, then you will see, that you cannot learn much about this game from other players, it has not enough depth

i think you need not to be a genius in strategy to find out, how to win this game

and i don´t think you can call yourself an expert (in what?) if u r ranked in the topscorer lists, the game is not so much about skill that u can call yourself "expert" or anything similar

the lucky things of the game:

a) you roll dices
b) you don´t decide where you put ur starting units
c) you don´t decide on which fields you get your new dices
d) you don´t decide at which position you play 1st or 7th?
e) you can become a victim of PGA
f) you can become victim of a laggy server (you cannot move

the strategical part of this game could increase a lot, if players could decide, where they start and where they can put the new dices they get

but this game playable even for dummies and u can climb up the ladder without much efforts

resumption: just come back and play....
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