Thrax, youre making the assumption that something would just jump right into the bad teacher's job vacancy. That's the big problem. Who would want to take a massive pay cut to go and try and corral a bunch of prepubescent malcontents. The unions were made to protect people who go into this thankless profession and decide to make it a career.

And the union in-turn protects bad teachers too. Raise teacher's pay and make it incentive laden. Increase funding to schools and teachers, I'm fine with that. Take it from our fucking military waste every year. High school teachers deserve good pay, but they also only work 9 months per year, which means they can supplement their pay in the summers.

Too bad the average teacher doesn't get paid $1.9 million, needs more than 1 year of college and can't go into name-trading or snake-oil sales upon retirement. Those NFL guys should really start a union...oh wait.

Per player revenue generated by the NFL = $3.6 million (approx)
Per teacher spending in public education = $142,000 (approx)

Hmmmmm
Number of NFL football players = 2500 (approx)
Number of American Teachers = 6 million (approx)

Hmmmmm
Average NFL player's salary = $1.9 Million
Average Teacher's salary = $55,000 (approx)

NFL style pay scaling for teachers
Highest Paid NFL Player = $38 Million last year ($18 Mil+Endorsement)
Lowest Paid NFL Player = $375,000
Theoretical NFL Style teacher pay:
Highest Teacher Salary = $1.1 Million
Lowest Teacher Salary = $10,855.26
...Seems fair

Oh and by the way Fran...
NFL Players DO have a accrued years adjustment:
Rookie: $375,000
2nd Year: $450,000
3rd Year: $600,000
4-6 Years: $685,000
7-9 Years: $810,000
10+ Years: $910,000
Too bad players don't sign contracts....oh wait...

So in California, the average starting teacher makes about $34k, so they should be earning "league average" of $55k by year 3 and $82k by year 10. And those are the minimums.

Saying a great teacher is going to suck when he/she makes tenure is like saying a great player is going to suck once he signs a contract. Likewise, saying terrible teachers get tenure all the time is like saying shitty players get contracts all the time.

Oh and as far as the "9 months" per year thing? All the teachers I know work 50-60 hour work weeks for those 9 months.

You don't know many art teachers then, do you? ;)

If we really want successful state run educational systems, the states need to emulate systems of education that work, namely those of other nations. Finland, Denmark, Sweden, Germany, France, etc. And guess what Rob, all those nations have teacher's unions.

Furthermore states with weaker teacher unions or no unions at all correlate with lower test scores on the SAT and ACT.

Sorry but the evidence is teacher's unions are integral to the educational system.

I don't think it's the unions that make those countries successful. Perhaps some of the the things that they bring to the table, but I wonder how many of them could be instituted without a union? How many of them could be instituted without continuing to throw money at the problem?

Anyone have a link to a good analysis of current education rankings by country by various factors? The data on wikipedia is several years old: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_Index

There are both union and non-union countries in the top 25.

Bill Gates had some interesting thoughts on the situation; a totally different take than most: http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Articles/2011/03/01/Bill-Gates-Budget-Cuts-Shouldnt-Harm-Education.aspx

Bueller?

I think you'll find the best cars are made by workers in unions, likewise the best educational systems are run by teacher unions.

Besides, why would the nation with the most robust economy settle for the top 25 in education, primary or secondary. We shouldn't be satisfied with anything below the top 10, we obviously have the resources.

We used to have the best educational system in the world... Ask yourself what changed between then and now. And Thrax, if you're going to give a non-sequitur answer like culture or poor parenting explain why exactly the same hasn't occurred to the best European educational systems (Germany being one) which have seemed to only improve with time and money.

The German education system is very nice. I read up about it on your favorite website.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Germany

My favorite parts:

- "Exams (which are always supervised) are usually essay based, rather than multiple choice. As of 11th grade, exams usually consist of no more than three separate exercises.[citation needed] While most exams in the first grades of secondary schools usually span no more than 90 minutes, exams in 11th to 13th grade may span four periods or more (without breaks)."

- "At the end of their schooling, students usually undergo a cumulative written and oral examination (Abitur in Gymnasiums or Abschlussprüfung in Realschulen and Hauptschulen). Students leaving Gymnasium after 9th grade do have the leaving examination of the Hauptschule and after 10th grade do have the Mittlere Reife (leaving examination of the Realschule)."

- "Fourth grade (or sixth, depending on the state) is often quite stressful for students of lower performance and their families. Many feel tremendous pressure when trying to achieve placement in Gymnasium, or at least when attempting to avoid placement in Hauptschule. Germany is unique compared to other western countries in its early segregation of students based on academic achievement."


That last one is very important and something the United States isn't prepared to do. Weed out the students that either can't or won't perform up to par and allow the best students to grow and excel without carrying the underachievers on their coattails. You can call my comment non-sequitur all you want, but I'm sure I could find an article citing the importance and the statistcal value of parent involvement with a child's educational career. Americans aren't willing to admit some people just aren't born equipped to meet certain challenges in life. Not everyone is special. Not everyone is bright, creative, and intelligent. We shouldn't lower the bar to cater to the lowest 25%, we should raise the bar to cater to the highest 25%.

But that view doesn't fit well with you politically. No Child Left Behind was a horrible fucking idea, but it received bipartisan support.

Germany also provides (free of charge) schooling for kids from age 3-6 (if parents wish their child to go). I'm having to pay for preschool out of my pocket here in the States. So there's more money we need. Teachers don't make enough pay, so there's more money we need. Schools need more technology, so there's more money we need. And of course you want all this while you still don't lose any funding for all those social programs you hold so dear.

Find a way to pay for it and it can get improved. And don't tell me raising taxes on the rich 5% is going to pay for it all....it won't.