Forum
COMPETITIVE INTEGRITY of EACH GAME
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Mavs wrote
at 5:43 PM, Wednesday November 12, 2008 EST
There is a varying amount of favoritism that can interfere with a fair competition. The game is most competitive when all players compete for the best placement for each game. Each game should be decided by the gameboard and chatbox of that individual game. However it is unrealistic to assume people will ignore all pre-existing relationships.
What we need is a clear set of rules to form a consensus of what is fair play. I have put some examples of different categories for anti-competitive behavior to think about: Category A "Overt Corruption" Actively seeking secret alliances, use of IM instead of chatbox to cooperate or negotiate, perpetual secret alliances with one player. >I think the community will generally recognize this as unethical behavior. Some actions have been taken against a few of the worst offenders. I recommend banning all the accounts who continue to do this. Category B "Game Fixing" Regularly Helping each other based upon pre-existing relationships. Especially when it isnt indicated in the gameboard or chatbox, if two players consistently cooperate with each other by doing such things as: Not blocking their connect; reluctance to accept a smart fair truce that would hurt your friend; refusing to accept a smart fair countertruce that would hurt your friend; intentionally aiding your friend against the interest of your truce partner, accepting a flag from your friends indefensible land while not accepting flags from others, going out of the way to quickly kill someone who is flagged before your friend loses a battle. There are a lot of other ways to award unfair placement to your friends. I know that most of these people do not think they are cheating (or wont admit it anyway). In fact I think these anti-competitive relationships are the basic strategy and sense of accomplishment for most top level players. Often these PGAs begin without intent and may last for a limited number of games or weeks. EVEN IF YOU DONT INITIATE the noncompetititive PGA, if you find that there is someone who will always do you favors and you will return favorable treatment, its PGA. YOUR GOAL FOR EACH GAME SHOULD BE THE HIGHEST PLACEMENT POSSIBLE FOR THAT GAME. It is not fair to help a friend for a favor you expect in the future. I recommend resetting the points for Category B offenses, and a lengthy RC with PGA partner. Repeat offenses should be banned. Category C "Lack of Competitive Integrity" Not cutting a vulnerable friend when it would easily yield you a better position because he is your friend; flagging for lower placement when you have a good chance to beat them in a fight; accepting a flag from a friend when you could use his land to improve your finish for that game. Any instance of "not trying to win" because someone else is your friend. >I am afraid that Category C offenses are the foundation for success of top level players. You hear the complaints from new players all the time. Unfamiliar people sit at a table and are given low placement based on pre-existing relationships, and not the actions on then gameboard or chatbox. The outcome of each comeptition should be based upon the gameboard and chatbox, not pre-existing relationships. It has been very difficult to define where you cross the line when using favoritism over gameplay to determine the standings in the games. IF YOU ARE EQUALLY AS LIKELY TO DESTROY YOUR FRIEND OR GIVE THEM A FAVOR FOR BETTER PLACEMENT, then you are respecting the competitive integrity of each game. If you pass up opportunities to win because you are reluctant to hurt your friend, then you are playing wrong. I think temprary no-sit penalties and short-term RC's are fair sanctions for Catergy C offenders. I recognize that it might be impossible to implement these sanctions which would encourage fair play, because it is so common amongst top level players. Most people at the top levels don't try to win, they don't compete, they trade favors to collect points for the monthly competition. I do have hope that things will eventually change! I have already noticed some slight improvement amongst top players, but not much. |
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Thraxle wrote
at 6:59 PM, Wednesday November 12, 2008 EST Category C is a very grey area leek. Should I truce someone who's playing style I am familiar with and know will be a good truce partner............or should I go the opposite direction and truce the guy I've never seen before, hoping they know how to play. Strategically speaking, it isn't a sound play to choose the unfamiliar over the familiar. If there are equally strong neighbors on either side of me, and I know one's style of play over the others, I will choose the player I know. To do anything else is simply putting me at a disadvantage and I would expect others that don't know me to do the same in that situation. It's a SOCIAL war game after all.
Now, if the unfamiliar neighbor is the stronger of the two (as far as board position and size), I will be apt to truce the larger player and leave my "friend" out to dry. It would be stupid to truce the weaker player simply to save my "friend" from defeat. This is as uncorrupt as I can be and I don't feel that there is anything wrong with this style of play. Studying your opponets and knowing their strengths and weaknesses is a major part of being successful in any game. KDice is no different. |
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Mavs wrote
at 9:24 PM, Wednesday November 12, 2008 EST Thraxle, if you pass up the chance to win the game because you dont want to cut your friend, then you are not respecting the competitive integrity of each game.
When someone chooses to sit and invest 20 minutes into a competition, should the results be determined by who Thraxle happens to be closer friends with, or should the results be determined by who has best decisions and luck on the gameboard and chatbox? But I agree that Top Players think Category C offenses are legit. If you arent really good at making these these types of noncompetitive decisions, then it is really difficult to collect points and stay at the top tables. I personally never made any distinction between Category A and Category C offenses, and I just complained it was all PGA cheating. Now I recognize that many people cheat in a manner which is acceptible and appreciated by the community. I am not sure its possible to go punish all the Category C cheaters. Anyone who watches a top level game can recognize that gameboard and chat strategy are only a partial factor in the outcome of games. Pre-existing relationships are extremely important in top level games. |
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Thraxle wrote
at 9:43 PM, Wednesday November 12, 2008 EST In the schoolyard........on the basketball court.........will you choose someone that you know, who happens to be able to shoot really well.........or will you choose a complete stranger and hope they will make a positive contribution?
I'm not talking about relationships here............I'm talking about knowledge. When I offer a truce to someone, I'd like to think that A) that player will accept my truce B) that player will not backstab me C) that player will play well the rest of the game resulting in a high finish for both truce partners. This isn't favoritism or PGA, it's common sense. This same type of play happens on 0 tables, 100 tables, 500 tables...............wherever. I don't condone it in the silent form, but if you offer truces in the chat box openly, there is no wrong doing. Calling it favoritism is simply graying over the strategic part of knowing how other players play. The same can be said about poker. If I know a particular player, and know how they play, I might be apt to call a bluff or fold a good hand based on previous knowledge. If I don't know the player at all, I have no strategic advantage at all and I am playing completely blind. If you want 100% advantageless dice rolling, go play the bots on Dice Wars. Otherwise, gather some fucking knowledge and learn how the people at your table play. Shouldn't take more than 1 game to see how a player goes about their business. Information gathering and player analysis FTW. |
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Thraxle wrote
at 9:47 PM, Wednesday November 12, 2008 EST "Thraxle, if you pass up the chance to win the game because you dont want to cut your friend, then you are not respecting the competitive integrity of each game."
Who said I was going to pass up a chance to win? In my post, I said I'd happily hang my "friend" out to dry if it gave me an advantage. "When someone chooses to sit and invest 20 minutes into a competition, should the results be determined by who Thraxle happens to be closer friends with, or should the results be determined by who has best decisions and luck on the gameboard and chatbox?" When was the last time you played a game that took 20 minutes? How is the end-game scenario being brought up in this situation? The only time I truce in latter rounds is if it's to revolt on a higher player or if I've been backstabbed by another player. Neither of these scenarios happen very often at all (unless I get leekstepped). |
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know_it_all wrote
at 10:28 PM, Wednesday November 12, 2008 EST this wont happen at the higher level tables.
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Mavs wrote
at 10:33 PM, Wednesday November 12, 2008 EST Oh yeah I agree that in the chatbox its very legitimate to truce your friend. I was just referring to the silent truces where you almost always favor your friend.
A NewPlayer joining a table may not know that Player 1 and Player 2 always make silent truces, so if NewPlayer participates in a competition where this silent friendship becomes the deciding factor in placement, it is unfair. I think it is smart and legitimate to make truces in the chat. I agree you are more likely and more smart to make truces with friends. I only meant that the secret favoritism was unfair. Thraxle is one of the fair players on the top tables so you probably dont have the same perspective as the people who cheat. I was hoping to get some more informed opinions here, but the people who cheat tend to hide their cheating... so it may be unlikely we will get a useful dialogue. |
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Hardcoretraceur wrote
at 3:32 AM, Thursday November 13, 2008 EST not going for the connect/cut that will wreck your friend that you know your friend will notice you refrained from, but someone you have never played against may not
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Embair wrote
at 4:38 AM, Thursday November 13, 2008 EST This topic in one sentence:
When you do something that brings you no profit, but is profitable for other (non-truced) player, it is cheating. I don't see any need (or reason) to dig in it any deeper. |
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detenmile wrote
at 6:02 AM, Thursday November 13, 2008 EST he leek what if i make a silent truce with somebody ive never played with. granted these truces are more likely to end in one of you taking advantage of the other. But if somebody moves there 8 stack off my border when they dont need to i think i can generally recognize this as a silent truce offer. If the rest of the table isnt paying attention then this is very deadly and i will squash you. This is a very legitimate strategey with people you dont know so why not with people you do know. The problem comes when going into the game both players have decided that they will give each other a silent truce. this is unacceptable and you can generally tell when this happens because the 2 same players end up truced game after game after game. However a perfectly good example of a silent truce can be found all the time. just watch the way others play a learn who is observant enough to realize that your trying to give them a silent truce.
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nuflis wrote
at 6:50 AM, Thursday November 13, 2008 EST Leek,
You are trying to turn the grey areas into black or white, don't forget the blatant BLACK areas: Category D "Proxy cheating" Sitting multiple accounts the same game. What would be "fair sanctions" for category D offenders? |