Forum
Why Flagging for Place is Bad
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Dudeface wrote
at 11:48 AM, Tuesday July 8, 2008 EDT
To let everyone know where I stand, and to avoid name calling later, I start every game by posting the same message: “flagging for place is lame, m’kay”
About one in five times, someone call me a name, or tries to explain why flagging for place is good. In either case, we spend the game discussing the pros and cons of flagging for places (as apposed to flagging out when you are in last place). My point is simple. KDice is a battle game, and flying a flag that says “I’m happy with second or third place, please leave me alone so I can prey on weaker players” is contrary to the spirit of a game that has domination and surprise reversals at its core. Most of the time the discussion ends with everyone at least understanding why I don’t honor flagging for place. Sometimes I will convert the person. Sometimes it will degenerate into name calling. Occasionally, players will gang up on me “to teach me a lesson”. And once I won with a single space when the person in forth place got tired of watching and flagged out. Today, during one of these discussions, someone countered with a phrase that crystallizes my point on this topic: “You are not going to win this argument, because being a wuss pays in KDice” Flagging for place has become yet another way to farm points. In every other example of this practice, I shrugged, thinking that no game can be perfect. In this case I can’t just shrug it off. Flagging for place encourages players to wuss out. It is counter to the spirit of a battle/war game. And flagging for place is sucking a lot of the joy out of playing KDice. Thoughtful commentary anyone? |
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nuflis wrote
at 3:46 PM, Tuesday July 8, 2008 EDT So in your opinion B doesn't owe C his win? Shouldn't B reward C for his help? ARE YOU SERIOUS?????
Anyway, A should have focused on C from the first time. Always kill the weakest before and secure 2nd. If you lose, lag out or flag quickly to save dom at 3rd. |
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moondust wrote
at 3:51 PM, Tuesday July 8, 2008 EDT A did focus on C, but was unlucky, as I said...
And as I also mentioned: A got very quickly into the 2nd position. |
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Ryan wrote
at 4:45 PM, Tuesday July 8, 2008 EDT Dicewars is a game where you battle to be first. There's nothing else. This works because you play against the computer. This is the game you're describing.
Kdice is multiplayer and diplomacy is a core part of the game. Being 2nd means something and is different from 5th. It's an absolute requirement that the different positions have different value and the current flagging is simply a tool for diplomacy and negotiating position. The tool is well used which tells you that people would rather negotiate than leave their fate in the game to the strongest player. |
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moondust wrote
at 4:47 PM, Tuesday July 8, 2008 EDT meaning?
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Ryan wrote
at 4:58 PM, Tuesday July 8, 2008 EDT I should also note that without flagging for position you'd still have the same problem (along with some other's that are now gone).
A long time ago it was very common for a small 2 territory player to truce his large neighbor and come second. I think this falls in the same category of what you're considering wuss-like and it actually happens quite a bit more without flagging for position. My argument is everything that you do with flags you can do in the chat box with truces. This means you're complaint is really about the behavior of players settling for a lower position instead of taking more risks for a higher position. Some players will take more risks than others. (this risk decision happens because there's value to positions other than first - if there were only value for 1st you would have endless games) |
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moondust wrote
at 5:04 PM, Tuesday July 8, 2008 EDT And what do you think about my example?
Should (B) respect the flag of (A) or not? |
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Wicked! wrote
at 5:07 PM, Tuesday July 8, 2008 EDT "A long time ago..."
*Lights up a pipe, sits on the hearth, and gets ready to reminisce about times gone by* |
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Ryan wrote
at 5:13 PM, Tuesday July 8, 2008 EDT moondust, I have to read the comments too?!?!
Ok, first of all the answer is subjective. Flags and truces are soft rules that can be broken so its up to the players to decide. With that said I can talk a bit about what I would do... If I was A I wouldn't rely exclusively on getting to 50%. I would realize that others can team against me and address that quickly. Sometimes you can sense that B and C are probably going to truce. Since A didn't see this I think its fair that he loses out on points. If I were C I would only agree to help B if he ensured me 2nd. In this case B must drop A down to 3rd to complete the deal. This is pretty harsh and A should have backup plans ready... maybe A would be smarter to keep a forth player around to take care of C. If I were B I would totally truce with C guarantee him 2nd and take down 1st. |
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moondust wrote
at 5:40 PM, Tuesday July 8, 2008 EDT And one last question: why did you guys install a flag button after all??????????????????????
I mean I have been discussing this for the last three days on this forum and people thought of all kinds of exceptions, excuses, pretexts etc etc etc etc etc to say that flags should be never ever respected... WHAT IS THE POINT OF THE FLAG BUTTON THEN? On the other hand: always when I'm playing, I experience that many players want flags to be repected. Maybe you should really have a poll where ALL* players are asked if flags should be respected or not. (At least in some cases) *It should be an obligatory poll, meaning that all players should vote before they start their next game...maybe when they log in or so... |
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Awesomeness! wrote
at 5:57 PM, Tuesday July 8, 2008 EDT good post and well done in the way u put ur point across.
i, personally can see both sides of the argument and i see a simple solution... add one extra button that allows the player to quit anytime so we still have current flagging for position but also a button for instant surrender as we did late last year... i believe this irradicates all problems with the acception of PGA cos that'l never happen as long as we have identity... thoughts? awe |
