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OTF to PGA a grey line in the sand
Posted By: MadHat_Sam at 9:50 AM, Friday February 18, 2011 EST
I will list some examples of behavior that would be legitimate and some that wouldn't be but this is in no way an exhaustive list or guideline for what is or isn't allowed. This is only a clarification of where a moderator might draw the line.
OTF stands for Old Trusted Friend or Off Table Friend.
PGA stands for Pre-Game Alliance, but is more of a catch all term for using off table knowledge to not just make the best move but to undermine the fair and competitive nature of a game.
Explicit PGAs tend to be mostly on the lower tables as the lack of socialization makes it easier to get away with and easier to do since the quantity of lower games is plentiful. Sometimes explicit PGAs will occur on higher tables but the players are better at self policing to a point as the table level increases.
Implicit PGAs are much more common at higher level tables are the player base is smaller and the knowledge each player has of one another is greater. Easiest example of this type of play is making a lower value and lower upside move to avoid hitting a "friend". KDice is a social game and relationships do play a role in playing it, but there is a line between not 1-Hitting a "friend" and playing a significantly lower value move to avoid hitting a "friend" at all.
In a perfect KWorld who your neighbor is wouldn't matter, but players are unique and we don't all follow the same algorithm for the moves we make so who your neighbor is does matter. It doesn't matter to the point where you refuse to make the best move because you don't want to upset someone you like, this crosses the line and creates a competitive deficit for players that are newer or less aware of the "friendships" at the table.
Well I understand most players aren't as ruthless as me, I am not trying to encourage behavior some people find distasteful such as 2v1ing someone you don't feel should be 2v1d given the situation. It is an individual players responsibility though to make sure that in their efforts to play how they think is "fair" is "fair" to the game not just to certain players they are "friends" with.
KDice does not lend itself to a clear set of guidelines for what is and isn't legitimate play. Much of this is subjective to the individual advisors, but we all tend to be close to what we feel is allowable.
The best I can offer as an advisor is that "I know it when I see it." As much as I would like a better clearer standard I do not have one.
Obligatory tl;dr
OTF stands for Old Trusted Friend or Off Table Friend.
PGA stands for Pre-Game Alliance, but is more of a catch all term for using off table knowledge to not just make the best move but to undermine the fair and competitive nature of a game.
Explicit PGAs tend to be mostly on the lower tables as the lack of socialization makes it easier to get away with and easier to do since the quantity of lower games is plentiful. Sometimes explicit PGAs will occur on higher tables but the players are better at self policing to a point as the table level increases.
Implicit PGAs are much more common at higher level tables are the player base is smaller and the knowledge each player has of one another is greater. Easiest example of this type of play is making a lower value and lower upside move to avoid hitting a "friend". KDice is a social game and relationships do play a role in playing it, but there is a line between not 1-Hitting a "friend" and playing a significantly lower value move to avoid hitting a "friend" at all.
In a perfect KWorld who your neighbor is wouldn't matter, but players are unique and we don't all follow the same algorithm for the moves we make so who your neighbor is does matter. It doesn't matter to the point where you refuse to make the best move because you don't want to upset someone you like, this crosses the line and creates a competitive deficit for players that are newer or less aware of the "friendships" at the table.
Well I understand most players aren't as ruthless as me, I am not trying to encourage behavior some people find distasteful such as 2v1ing someone you don't feel should be 2v1d given the situation. It is an individual players responsibility though to make sure that in their efforts to play how they think is "fair" is "fair" to the game not just to certain players they are "friends" with.
KDice does not lend itself to a clear set of guidelines for what is and isn't legitimate play. Much of this is subjective to the individual advisors, but we all tend to be close to what we feel is allowable.
The best I can offer as an advisor is that "I know it when I see it." As much as I would like a better clearer standard I do not have one.
Obligatory tl;dr
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kdicefreak wrote
at 4:37 PM, Wednesday February 23, 2011 EST ban the pga-ers
but then don't those assholes don't have a life, kdice is all they have |
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PRESIDENT N° 1 wrote
at 6:36 PM, Friday February 25, 2011 EST Even though this article may not fulfill to a great extent a readers´expectation to answer a lot of the questions arising with this topic, it is still good for a start.
In fact, I had stopped playing this account for exactly the reasons being discussed. Such I decided to add my thoughts and experienced situations as to contribute to the discussion. With a little distance from the big table scramble, I can actually melt it down to one simple requirement: Respect. Which is a key aspect for any healthy social interactions and engagement in real life. Therefore I dare say that the phenomenom of cheating, and we are not talking about anything else, has nothing to do with a perfect or non perfect world, but rather with a value named respect or the lack of it. Blunt PGA or OTF are both a way of showing disrespect to all others player, regardless of the table ranking to play on. When it comes to respect, it is therefore not even necessary to draw a line and distinguish between the two which is actually just another clever way to disguise the method behind it an dnaming it somewhat more friendly. Under the line it remains creating an unduly advantage, and heck, all of us (including myself) are all quite prone to this temptation... level of sophistication In fact according to my own experiences through all different sorts of tables and tourneys, the biggest difference between higher and lower tables would be the finesse with which cheating occurs. In my eyes it is simply wrong, that there there is less cheating on higher tables than on lower tables, as there is much more at stake. People cheating on lower tables are just acting noobish, inexperienced or careless so they are easy to be caught. On the contarry, those being cheated, are usually more upset than those on big tables. (who have started to accept the fact that it is normal) Why so ? Finishing 7th on a 5 k table will let you lose aprox. 3.5 k, which takes some 5 - 7 wins on a 500 table. So it makes more sense to cheat once as to avoid last place rather than 5 - 7 cheats to get a 1st... on a 500 table At least it seems more reasonable and by far less dangerous being caught. Also, game experience and (suspected) intelligence should be higher with more points at stake and at the same time would be the methods to gain even slight advantages, which are obviously needed in a game, where only 2 positions (1 st and 2nd place) are actually desirable, ranks 3 - 5 bearable and 6, 7 to be avoided. At this point, may I ask the following question? If you play any game with friends...(board game, sports, whatever) do you actually play to someones`advantage or disadvantage by default ? I guess not, cause it would poison the atmosphere. So it may be valuable to examine what would be one of the significant differences between kdice and other games? Online... you play with people you will actually barely ever see or meet, anonymously, without having to bear any deeper consequences regarding the friendship, being invited again, the whole social context. Unfortunately this social regulation almost completely fails here (and probably also in other multiplayer online games). So people don`t give a **** There is no working way to sanction unless by the mods. The online community obvioulsy barely ever sanctions bad behaviour. So the likelihood of getting caught appears rather small and chances of getting away with cheating are vast. This reminds me of a saying that the good pupil also works / studies hard when the master is away, not only before his eyes. In other words, it is a question of moral, values and standards. It also reminds me of the current discussion in Germany, about the 'copy and paste affair' of their most popular minister (defence) Guttenberg who cheated in his scientific work and was deprived of his Dr.. after he had received his PHD with 'summa cum laude' originally. Still most of the people on the street obviously back him, despite of him disrespecting the whole academic set of rules..... Just my thoughts. |
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PRESIDENT N° 1 wrote
at 6:36 PM, Friday February 25, 2011 EST Even though this article may not fulfill to a great extent a readers´expectation to answer a lot of the questions arising with this topic, it is still good for a start.
In fact, I had stopped playing this account for exactly the reasons being discussed. Such I decided to add my thoughts and experienced situations as to contribute to the discussion. With a little distance from the big table scramble, I can actually melt it down to one simple requirement: Respect. Which is a key aspect for any healthy social interactions and engagement in real life. Therefore I dare say that the phenomenom of cheating, and we are not talking about anything else, has nothing to do with a perfect or non perfect world, but rather with a value named respect or the lack of it. Blunt PGA or OTF are both a way of showing disrespect to all others player, regardless of the table ranking to play on. When it comes to respect, it is therefore not even necessary to draw a line and distinguish between the two which is actually just another clever way to disguise the method behind it an dnaming it somewhat more friendly. Under the line it remains creating an unduly advantage, and heck, all of us (including myself) are all quite prone to this temptation... level of sophistication In fact according to my own experiences through all different sorts of tables and tourneys, the biggest difference between higher and lower tables would be the finesse with which cheating occurs. In my eyes it is simply wrong, that there there is less cheating on higher tables than on lower tables, as there is much more at stake. People cheating on lower tables are just acting noobish, inexperienced or careless so they are easy to be caught. On the contarry, those being cheated, are usually more upset than those on big tables. (who have started to accept the fact that it is normal) Why so ? Finishing 7th on a 5 k table will let you lose aprox. 3.5 k, which takes some 5 - 7 wins on a 500 table. So it makes more sense to cheat once as to avoid last place rather than 5 - 7 cheats to get a 1st... on a 500 table At least it seems more reasonable and by far less dangerous being caught. Also, game experience and (suspected) intelligence should be higher with more points at stake and at the same time would be the methods to gain even slight advantages, which are obviously needed in a game, where only 2 positions (1 st and 2nd place) are actually desirable, ranks 3 - 5 bearable and 6, 7 to be avoided. At this point, may I ask the following question? If you play any game with friends...(board game, sports, whatever) do you actually play to someones`advantage or disadvantage by default ? I guess not, cause it would poison the atmosphere. So it may be valuable to examine what would be one of the significant differences between kdice and other games? Online... you play with people you will actually barely ever see or meet, anonymously, without having to bear any deeper consequences regarding the friendship, being invited again, the whole social context. Unfortunately this social regulation almost completely fails here (and probably also in other multiplayer online games). So people don`t give a **** There is no working way to sanction unless by the mods. The online community obvioulsy barely ever sanctions bad behaviour. So the likelihood of getting caught appears rather small and chances of getting away with cheating are vast. This reminds me of a saying that the good pupil also works / studies hard when the master is away, not only before his eyes. In other words, it is a question of moral, values and standards. It also reminds me of the current discussion in Germany, about the 'copy and paste affair' of their most popular minister (defence) Guttenberg who cheated in his scientific work and was deprived of his Dr.. after he had received his PHD with 'summa cum laude' originally. Still most of the people on the street obviously back him, despite of him disrespecting the whole academic set of rules..... Just my thoughts. |
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PRESIDENT N° 1 wrote
at 6:37 PM, Friday February 25, 2011 EST Even though this article may not fulfill to a great extent a readers´expectation to answer a lot of the questions arising with this topic, it is still good for a start.
In fact, I had stopped playing this account for exactly the reasons being discussed. Such I decided to add my thoughts and experienced situations as to contribute to the discussion. With a little distance from the big table scramble, I can actually melt it down to one simple requirement: Respect. Which is a key aspect for any healthy social interactions and engagement in real life. Therefore I dare say that the phenomenom of cheating, and we are not talking about anything else, has nothing to do with a perfect or non perfect world, but rather with a value named respect or the lack of it. Blunt PGA or OTF are both a way of showing disrespect to all others player, regardless of the table ranking to play on. When it comes to respect, it is therefore not even necessary to draw a line and distinguish between the two which is actually just another clever way to disguise the method behind it an dnaming it somewhat more friendly. Under the line it remains creating an unduly advantage, and heck, all of us (including myself) are all quite prone to this temptation... level of sophistication In fact according to my own experiences through all different sorts of tables and tourneys, the biggest difference between higher and lower tables would be the finesse with which cheating occurs. In my eyes it is simply wrong, that there there is less cheating on higher tables than on lower tables, as there is much more at stake. People cheating on lower tables are just acting noobish, inexperienced or careless so they are easy to be caught. On the contarry, those being cheated, are usually more upset than those on big tables. (who have started to accept the fact that it is normal) Why so ? Finishing 7th on a 5 k table will let you lose aprox. 3.5 k, which takes some 5 - 7 wins on a 500 table. So it makes more sense to cheat once as to avoid last place rather than 5 - 7 cheats to get a 1st... on a 500 table At least it seems more reasonable and by far less dangerous being caught. Also, game experience and (suspected) intelligence should be higher with more points at stake and at the same time would be the methods to gain even slight advantages, which are obviously needed in a game, where only 2 positions (1 st and 2nd place) are actually desirable, ranks 3 - 5 bearable and 6, 7 to be avoided. At this point, may I ask the following question? If you play any game with friends...(board game, sports, whatever) do you actually play to someones`advantage or disadvantage by default ? I guess not, cause it would poison the atmosphere. So it may be valuable to examine what would be one of the significant differences between kdice and other games? Online... you play with people you will actually barely ever see or meet, anonymously, without having to bear any deeper consequences regarding the friendship, being invited again, the whole social context. Unfortunately this social regulation almost completely fails here (and probably also in other multiplayer online games). So people don`t give a **** There is no working way to sanction unless by the mods. The online community obvioulsy barely ever sanctions bad behaviour. So the likelihood of getting caught appears rather small and chances of getting away with cheating are vast. This reminds me of a saying that the good pupil also works / studies hard when the master is away, not only before his eyes. In other words, it is a question of moral, values and standards. It also reminds me of the current discussion in Germany, about the 'copy and paste affair' of their most popular minister (defence) Guttenberg who cheated in his scientific work and was deprived of his Dr.. after he had received his PHD with 'summa cum laude' originally. Still most of the people on the street obviously back him, despite of him disrespecting the whole academic set of rules..... Just my thoughts. |
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PRESIDENT N° 1 wrote
at 6:43 PM, Friday February 25, 2011 EST Even though this article may not fulfill to a great extent a readers´expectation to answer a lot of the questions arising with this topic, it is still good for a start. Such I decided to add my thoughts and experienced situations as to contribute to the discussion. With a little distance from the big table scramble, I can actually melt it down to one simple requirement: Respect. Which is a key aspect for any healthy social interactions and engagement in real life. Therefore I dare say that the phenomenom of cheating, and we are not talking about anything else, has nothing to do with a perfect or non perfect world, but rather with a value named 'respect' or the lack of it. Blunt PGA or OTF are both a way of showing disrespect to all others player, regardless of the table ranking to play on. When it comes to respect, it is therefore not even necessary to draw a line and distinguish between the two which is actually just another clever way to disguise the method behind it an dnaming it somewhat more friendly. Under the line it remains creating an unduly advantage, and heck, all of us (including myself) are all quite prone to this temptation... level of sophistication In fact according to my own experiences through all different sorts of tables and tourneys, the biggest difference between higher and lower tables would be the finesse with which cheating occurs. In my eyes it is simply wrong, that there there is less cheating on higher tables than on lower tables, as there is much more at stake. People cheating on lower tables are just acting noobish, inexperienced or careless so they are easy to be caught. On the contarry, those being cheated, are usually more upset than those on big tables. (who have started to accept the fact that it is normal) Why so ? Finishing 7th on a 5 k table will let you lose aprox. 3.5 k, which takes some 5 - 7 wins on a 500 table. So it makes more sense to cheat once as to avoid last place rather than 5 - 7 cheats to get a 1st... on a 500 table At least it seems more reasonable and by far less dangerous being caught. Also, game experience and (suspected) intelligence should be higher with more points at stake and at the same time would be the methods to gain even slight advantages, which are obviously needed in a game, where only 2 positions (1 st and 2nd place) are actually desirable, ranks 3 - 5 bearable and 6, 7 to be avoided. At this point, may I ask the following question? If you play any game with friends...(board game, sports, whatever) do you actually play to someones`advantage or disadvantage by default ? I guess not, cause it would poison the atmosphere and you may have to deal with having to bear consequences regarding the friendship, e.g. being invited again, the whole social context. So it may be valuable to examine what would be one of the significant differences between kdice and other games? Online... you play with people you will actually barely ever see or meet, anonymously, without direct communication. Unfortunately this social regulation almost completely fails here (and probably also in other multiplayer online games). So people don`t give a **** There is no working way to sanction unless by the mods. The online community obvioulsy barely ever sanctions bad behaviour. So the likelihood of getting caught appears rather small and chances of getting away with cheating are vast. It also reminds me of the current discussion in Germany, about the 'copy and paste affair' of their most popular minister (defence) Guttenberg who cheated in his scientific work and was deprived of his Dr.. after he had received his PHD with 'summa cum laude' (A +) originally. Still most of the people on the street obviously back him, despite of him disrespecting the whole academic set of rules..... Just my thoughts. |
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PRESIDENT N° 1 wrote
at 6:45 PM, Friday February 25, 2011 EST Shoot, I did not intent to post this 3 times... lol
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jurgen wrote
at 4:26 AM, Saturday February 26, 2011 EST you sure didn't, you posted it 4 times!
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greekboi wrote
at 4:02 PM, Tuesday March 1, 2011 EST wow you're all dumb.
kdice in a nutshell. 50% of kdicers just play to kill time, with no care as to how many points they accumulate or what their virtual reputation is. these guys are normal. example: anyone on a 0 or 100 table midway through the month that isn't named wow7 30% of kdicers play for points, and do care about how many points they accumulate. while they may not necessarily PGA every game, often times they are seated with at least one other player who is a point whore and cares too much about their points. these two (or more) players will extend favoritism towards each other whenever possible. example: dasfury and madhat_sam, greekboi and leeeroy jenkins, shadolin and everybody, etc.. (i could go on forever, this is basically the players that are regularly at 2k and 5k tables) 20% of kdicers play for points, and don't care how they gain them. these guys cheat, both with other players and with themselves (via proxy). as you will often hear, some of these players utilize AIM, although the good ones don't need AIM in order to cheat. example: gurgi and zoid, happytoscrap and crystal444 there is your kdice demographic, although the %ages are estimations that i drew up in like 2 secs without any logical thought process now the question is what to do with them? is it fair to penalize PGAers but act as thought OTF is ok? OTF is obviously the inevitable result of a limited group of people playing at the upper tables, although the fact that everyone knows each other leads people to anticipate and expect OTF, and it doesn't affect the outcome like a PGA would. PGA is kinda bullshit, as is proxy, in that they can ruin the outcome of a game regardless of the starting positions and other factors that would normally influence the winner of a game. as sam stated, an OTF should be penalized when it crosses the "grey line," as he so eloquently put it, between a PGA relationship and just two players that know each other well and have developed a degree of respect and trust towards each other. that is really all you can say on the issue. its not something that you can clearly define, but if the mods are able to get together and brainstorm, they can probably conceptualize the terms and come to an acceptable standard when it comes to banning for the community |
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Peltsi wrote
at 3:42 PM, Sunday March 6, 2011 EST I actually prefer playing in the lower tables, because OTFs are too common in higher ones.
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toxic_avenger23 wrote
at 4:58 PM, Wednesday March 9, 2011 EST You know sometimes I would like to say that, opinions are like a$$holes. This instance of the "otf" to me mean ol' time friend and not off table. I have had to change my name so many times because people like to think I don't know how to play. Well, tbh I do(not always educated). Respect is always earned not given, supposedly. I give respect to all until they make a stupid move in a game that just is perplexing.
So many times around here I have seen that 3 or 4 ppl play together and don't really care where they get bc they know it can be earned later. I; for example, have tried everything I can logically think of. To no e vale ofc. Anyways, here's my point: off table, on table, old time w.e. just play outta respect and fairness and maybe we'll actually see some people who have strived for a medal actually get one. Peace out, hollaz to all my homies whereever u may be. |
