Forum
Hobbes vs. Kropotkin
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greekboi wrote
at 3:18 PM, Wednesday May 18, 2011 EDT
Hey dudes/dudettes,
I'm working on a short paper for class right now, the topic being the philosophies of Thomas Hobbes and Peter Kropotkin. Basically, their views on human nature are the opposite (Hobbes thinks we are inherently asocial and apolitical, while Kropotkin thinks that individuals work for the benefit of others). For those of you who have read parts of Leviathan and/or Mutual Aid, I was wondering if you had any input to add. It would certainly help me with my paper, in which I am gonna basically compare/contrast the two since their ideas seem to be pretty linear. I personally think I agree with Hobbes, because I think it is fear of violence (from the state) that causes us live in peace. However, I also agree with Kropotkin in regards to how we do also act for the mutual benefit of the community sometimes (think post-disaster scenarios, Neighborhood Watch, etc..). Anyways, any input would be helpful. Cheers, Greek |
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Boner Oiler wrote
at 3:28 PM, Wednesday May 18, 2011 EDT Generally there's a correlation between how organized a society is and how much violence it commits. States go to war, tribes not so much. This is especially true within a society, there is no police brutality within a tribute or group of bedouins.
So I think I'd side against Hobbes, I'd probably cite stuff like how monkeys and shit live in peaceful societies and cooperate. |
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Boner Oiler wrote
at 3:37 PM, Wednesday May 18, 2011 EDT I'd also cite stuff like how as society gets more sophisticated so too do militaries and subsequent violence.
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Boner Oiler wrote
at 3:39 PM, Wednesday May 18, 2011 EDT Once again though this only holds within a society, the Vikings and Mongols sacked the shit out of people
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MadHat_Sam wrote
at 4:03 PM, Wednesday May 18, 2011 EDT Hobbes the cartoon tiger always seemed to be better at describing the nature of man than Thomas Hobbes the philosopher was.
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greekboi wrote
at 6:09 PM, Wednesday May 18, 2011 EDT lol Sam. and thanks Alex. I think I'm basically gonna agree/disagree with certain aspects of both philosophies. I agree with Hobbes, but I think his ideas regarding the state of nature only apply when there is a lack of resources. When an abundance exists, there is no need for "war" and/or chaos.
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greekboi wrote
at 6:11 PM, Wednesday May 18, 2011 EDT BTW Sam, is it a coincidence that (John) Calvin and (Thomas) Hobbes were the names of philosophers? I'm kind of embarrassed just asking, considering my father passed down to me what I believe to be a complete collection of Calvin & Hobbes and I have read them all.
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Marxism wrote
at 6:57 PM, Wednesday May 18, 2011 EDT Veta once again proves his complete and utter ignorance of the social sciences! We are actually at the least violent time in the history of the human species! Try again!
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Marxism wrote
at 7:00 PM, Wednesday May 18, 2011 EDT Also greekboi, if you are really interested in the reasoning behind war and are open to non-traditional sources (which it seems you are since you are discussing Kropotkin) then I would heavily recommend reading "On Imperialism" by Lenin. It goes deeply into Marxist analysis of imperialism and it brings up many wonderful points that you won't see in Hobbes or Kropotkin.
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Boner Oiler wrote
at 10:33 PM, Wednesday May 18, 2011 EDT Well Marx people living in the 1880s could say the same thing. Speaking of scientists isn't there a group of them that put us 6 minutes from midnight on the doom clock?
As an American I am pretty cognizant of the fact that we have the most executions on a per capita basis on any country. Point is saying that today we aren't at war (we're in 4) is purely anecdotal. Look at history and the trend has been that there are greater atrocities and violence as society becomes more sophisticated. I'm not an anarchist but I certainly understand the position of people like Noam Chomsky. Today we have organized crime and gang violence not unlike what we had during the 20s, you never had that in the 19th century. |
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deadcode wrote
at 12:09 AM, Thursday May 19, 2011 EDT Steven Pinker from the Department of Psychology at Harvard University (aka not Indiana) agrees with Marxism's comment.
BO, you can read all about it here: http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/pinker07/pinker07_index.html PS. I'm not sure what he got on his AP test; so please go easy on me. |
